What's your RV's stance like?

[scooby]

Does it have a slightly nose-down stance like mine (which I quite like)?

I ask because I realised - when fitting the new exhaust - that my engine is therefore also effectively sitting off the level, being noticeably lower at the front by a not-insignificant amount (about a half-inch?).

A problem? Not majorly, but it does mean that the angle of the prop to the rear axle is therefore unnecessarily large. Since it looks dead easy to lower the gearbox at its end - add spacers between it and the mounting bracket - then this is something I plan to do.

My car also came with a weird cooling issue that AndyMac pointed out to me when he sold it; if you fill the rad to the 'top' of the 'tubes' as you would normally, it'll eject a goodly amount of its contents once it all heats up. After that it runs ok, but it's a bit disconcerting to look in there and see now't. I wonder if the engine angle has something to do with that too?


Anyways - something RV (and SS) owners may wish to check; stick a spirit level on your engine cover and see if it's sloping down towards the front. If so, it may be worth taking a teeny bit of that strain off yer propshaft journals by lowering it at the gearbox.

[Deleted]

I have been thinking of lowering the rear of the gear box a bit to line it up better. Pleanty of clearance so shouldnt be an issue even if it goes off road, maybe will fit a decent skid plate as well. The only other issue with the stance is my camber, i need to make adjustable top wish bones so i can push the top out a bit and keep the wheels more upright, think this is due bigger wheels to get clearnace.

Dave

[scooby]

Interesting about camber. My wheels are also tilting slightly inwards at their tops, but I don't understand why that should be as the steering arms are dead horizontal, so in theory the car is sitting as it should be.

Wouldn't you expect negative camber to occur if the front were lowered? In which case the steering arms would be sloping upwards towards the hubs? My steering arms are level, but there's still slight, but noticeable, neg camber.

What are your 'arms' like?

Anyone know what effect too much neg camber would have on the steering?

[Deleted]

Hi i will have a look tonight at the steering arms.

I think the camber is caused by the unequal wishbones top and bottom and as they droop down the outer end of the top one moves towards the center.

[biggles1]

The angle of the steering arms on my RV have often got me thinking. I've not driven it with the 15" wheels and big tyres on yet, so I'm not sure how it's going to behave on the road. They do seem to be at quite a steep angle (usually a cause of bump steer). I also have a fair amount on negative camber.



John

[scooby]

Ah - that blows my theory above out off t'water...

I'd assumed that 'lowered' suspension would lead to negative camber - eg if you sat an elephant on the your bonnet. But with your example above, Biggles, I think it's pretty clear that your suspension is 'raised' if anything and yet you say the camber is 'negative'. Perhaps Cortina suspension works the opposite way to what I expected?

I'll try and count how many spring coil-turns I have on my front - perhaps mine have been chopped a bit to compensate for the lighter body? In which case I guess either softer springs or a bit of light trimming of your springs would see you back on the level?

I'm no expert but that does look quite a steep steering arm angle so I wouldn't be surprised if you had some bump steer.

My steering is heavy (of course!) and a bit vague - it doesn't self-centre as much as I'd like. But no obvious 'bump steer' as such. I'm guessing my castor angle hasn't changed (why should it?) so the vagueness could possibly be down to the much larger tyres.

[Peter]

If the upper wishbone is shorter than the lower the camber will always alter, the only way to combat this when raising OR lowering is the replace inner bushes with rose joints or the TOP ball joint with an adjustable ball or rose joint, as in weld a threaded tube to the upper wishbone. The lower has to stay as is at it takes all the load, the upper just keeps everything in place.

[Deleted]

In relation to your engine there are a number of things to consider:

(i) You should be aiming for a straight line from the centre of your crankshaft pulley, through gearbox input shaft, propshaft to the diff. Building the RV from the instruction manual you'll find that this is easier said than done and on most, the propshaft is markedly out of line with the rest of the drivetrain. Not too much of a problem unless the uj's are at their limits. This can be adjusted by tinkering with engine mounts, gearbox mounts and rear spring rates to obtain the best compromise.

(ii) The mounting face of the carb on the inlet manifold should be the place you put your spirit level. On many engines this can be level whilst the rest of the engine, (Usually rocker cover), looks tilted. Remember that the vehicle itself needs to be on level ground before you check how level your engine is.

(iii) I'm assuming that your radiator has a cap rather than having a header tank with its own pressure cap. If I have understood your post correctly your coolant disappears from sight at the top of the radiator. Your water coolant should be visible when the radiator cap is removed...careful when removing the cap on a hot engine...this ensures the correct flow of coolant. If your water is disappearing you either have a leak or an airlock. Use a header tank in your system mounted higher than the highest point of your coolant system.


Looking at the track rod arms in the pic I suspect that bump steer with be a feature of your ride. This is obviously a Cortina set up....check everything is mounted correctly and if so you can source a boss that will fit between the track rod end and the stub axle to help reduce the angle of the track rod. Ideally the track rods should be parallel to the ground the car is sitting on. One error in this part of the build is tightening up everything before the weight of the car is dropped on to the suspension....everthing should be torqued up once the weight has been allowed to settle and bounced a few times....couple this with the original springs which were designed for use with a heavier bodyshell and therefore possibly too stiff and you may find you have steering/suspension geometry issues.

My RV has a nose down stance but that's because I've built in a slight rake using differnt size wheels and tyres front to rear....mounting my engine is the next step.

Just my thoughts....good luck.

[scooby]

Cracking stuff, 'Runner.

The track-rod arms above are Biggles' - I agree, they look as tho' they could cause bump-steer probs. Pleased to say my own 'arms are very level, and b-s isn't a problem (tho' a general 'vagueness' is...)

Ah - take the level on the carb manifold face? That makes sense.

Yep, my rad has just a cap - no expansion tank, tho' I did buy one a goodly while ago with the intention of fitting it - haven't got round to it yet... Actually, one reason I haven;t bothered is that it's been fine, just like AndyMac said it would! Longer-term, I am looking to get a more modern engine and box, so major changes can wait until then.

I'll try and remember to take a photo of my front springs tomorrow - I wonder if they've been cut down a bit, and that's why Biggles' is still riding high? Do you know if shortening them was a suggestion in the build manual, to compensate for the reduced body weight of the RV over the Cortina?

[biggles1]

Jun 21, 2014 19:46:07 GMT @roadrunner1 said:

Looking at the track rod arms in the pic I suspect that bump steer with be a feature of your ride. This is obviously a Cortina set up....check everything is mounted correctly and if so you can source a boss that will fit between the track rod end and the stub axle to help reduce the angle of the track rod. . . .

It does look a bit steep doesn't it. I know a bit about bump steer from setting up suspension on my lowered Ford Mustangs. It's quite an easy fix on those as lots of tuning companies supply "Bump Steer Kits" which, as you mention, provide a tapered, adjustable spacer to fit in place of the track rod end.
However, if you look at my photo, that would make matters worse. What I need is to actually remove the track rod end and reposition it above the stub axle instead of it going up through the bottom where it is now.
I assume that the stub axle and track rod spindle are tapered to fit from underneath, so that's a bit of a non starter without some sort of engineering work.

John

[Peter]

I had to fit bump steer bushes on my VW with lowered suspension and I also have a R&P steering, in the case of the VW I drilled out the ball joint holes and fitted the bushed then reversed the ball joints.

[Gary]

Jun 22, 2014 0:07:19 GMT scooby said:

I'll try and remember to take a photo of my front springs tomorrow - I wonder if they've been cut down a bit, and that's why Biggles' is still riding high? Do you know if shortening them was a suggestion in the build manual, to compensate for the reduced body weight of the RV over the Cortina?

As far as I know there was nothing in the build manual about cutting the springs, but the factory DID offer softer springs (which I bought ) as the ride was thought to be wrong with the standard Cortina springs.

[scooby]

Photo taken. It doesn't look 'cut-down', so I guess I may have the softer springs too? (Doesn't bludy feel like it tho'...)

So what's causing Biggles' 'drop'? His all looks to be too high at the front (you don't have the engine out in that photo, do you...?!)

Attachments:

[biggles1]

Jun 22, 2014 20:43:58 GMT scooby said:

(you don't have the engine out in that photo, do you...?!)

The engine is a 2.0 pinto and it's all fitted, complete and running. The ride height doesn't look high to me. It stands very slightly nose down and looks about the same as my other RV's I've owned.
One thing to note though, look at the space between the coils on my springs compared to yours.

John

[Peter]

looks like completely different spring damper set up to me, here is a side by side via paint-shop.

[scooby]

Blimey, you're seeing things I ain't

I wonder if it's as simple as my RV has the softer springs and Biggles' are standard?

[scooby]

Mine doesn't sit particularly high either - the front tyres are 28" overall diameter, and that's just a 2" gap betwixt the top of the tyre and the outer edge of the wing. How much gap do you have there, Biggles?

Attachments:

[Deleted]

Jun 23, 2014 17:45:54 GMT Peter said:

looks like completely different spring damper set up to me, here is a side by side via paint-shop.
View Attachment

That looks like a standard Cortina spring on the left whilst the spring on the right is a multi-coil from who knows where. Could be an after-market or different donor? Comparing the pics there are some significant differences in the respective set ups. The answer to whoever mentioned it earlier is not necessarily shorter springs as a shorter spring generally equates to a stiffer spring. What you would need is a progresive rated spring where the spring rate is relatively sof in normal use but begins to stiffen up when you approach full compression.

Biggles....your point is correct. If you are experiencing bump steer then moving your track rod end to bolt down through the stub axle might go some way to solve the issue. The stub axle does have a taper so its not a straight forward unbolt and refit job...you need to drill out the hole with a tapered engineering bit drilling from top to bottom, then you need to source a replacement trackrod end with a taper to suit.....will be larger than the stock part as the bottom part of the hole will become the smaller end of the taper rather than the larger as it is now. Obviously if you are happy with the ride then leave as is.

[scooby]

Stupid question - could these two springs not be the same, except the one on t'left is not so compressed?

[Deleted]

Jun 24, 2014 22:17:37 GMT scooby said:

Stupid question - could these two springs not be the same, except the one on t'left is not so compressed?

The spring on the right looks like its got 8 coils and only 6 on the spring on the left? Springs do soften with age but this looks too even to me. However it is possible to shorten springs by heating them whilst under compression. A dying art and as to be done properly if the springs aren't to become brittle. Reckon the only person who knows is the original builder or the owner of the donor car.

There must be a few other RV owners on here that could post some pics of there front end....might give you a tipas to who is the odd man out ;-)

I can't really help as my RV isSierra based.........different kettle of fish!!

[biggles1]

Jun 24, 2014 10:30:37 GMT scooby said:

Mine doesn't sit particularly high either - the front tyres are 28" overall diameter, and that's just a 2" gap betwixt the top of the tyre and the outer edge of the wing. How much gap do you have there, Biggles?

I'm running 225 / 75 x 15 tyres and I have a 31/2 inch gap from the top of the tyre to the bottom edge of the lip of the front wing.



I know, I know. . . . the colour is bloody ghastly, but it will be changed before it goes back on the road.

John

[Peter]

Jun 24, 2014 21:20:22 GMT @roadrunner1 said:

Jun 23, 2014 17:45:54 GMT Peter said:

looks like completely different spring damper set up to me, here is a side by side via paint-shop.
View Attachment

Biggles....your point is correct. If you are experiencing bump steer then moving your track rod end to bolt down through the stub axle might go some way to solve the issue. The stub axle does have a taper so its not a straight forward unbolt and refit job...you need to drill out the hole with a tapered engineering bit drilling from top to bottom, then you need to source a replacement trackrod end with a taper to suit.....will be larger than the stock part as the bottom part of the hole will become the smaller end of the taper rather than the larger as it is now. Obviously if you are happy with the ride then leave as is.

What you need are anti-bump-steer bushes, drill out the hole in the arm with a normal bit and fit the bushes with the tapper in the other way, advantage is you can always reverse the bush at a later date and return to 'normal'.
Most ball joints have a similar tapper, so the VW ones should be OK.
I have these fitted
www.vwheritage.com/vw_spares_Bump-steer-bushes-most-68-requires-drilling-%2817mm%29-AC4986613_act_shop.product_pID_82851.htm

[scooby]

Jun 25, 2014 7:19:58 GMT biggles1 said:

Jun 24, 2014 10:30:37 GMT scooby said:

Mine doesn't sit particularly high either - the front tyres are 28" overall diameter, and that's just a 2" gap betwixt the top of the tyre and the outer edge of the wing. How much gap do you have there, Biggles?

I'm running 225 / 75 x 15 tyres and I have a 31/2 inch gap from the top of the tyre to the bottom edge of the lip of the front wing.



I know, I know. . . . the colour is bloody ghastly, but it will be changed before it goes back on the road.

John

Hey, the colour is the best thing about your Jeep

(Yanking yer chain...)

Your tyres, then, will be abut the same diameter as mine - around 28 and a quarter inches? In which case it looks to be sitting a goodly 1.5" higher than mine (assuming the bodywork is sitting the same way on the chassis)?

I'm guessing that the metal Cortina front end is significantly heavier than the Eagles's front chassis/fibreglass body, so if the standard Cortina were used without modification you'd expect the Jeep to sitting higher by - what - and inch or so?

Anyways, who modified your rear arches? Is that the same as the expensive 4x4 Eagle version on the Landrover website?

[Deleted]

Jun 25, 2014 9:12:05 GMT Peter said:

Jun 24, 2014 21:20:22 GMT @roadrunner1 said:

What you need are anti-bump-steer bushes, drill out the hole in the arm with a normal bit and fit the bushes with the tapper in the other way, advantage is you can always reverse the bush at a later date and return to 'normal'.
Most ball joints have a similar tapper, so the VW ones should be OK.
I have these fitted
www.vwheritage.com/vw_spares_Bump-steer-bushes-most-68-requires-drilling-%2817mm%29-AC4986613_act_shop.product_pID_82851.htm

Mixing VW and Cortina parts Peter? Firstly you need to make sure thatthese bushes fit your stub axles but if the Cortina arms need drilled out to 17mm in the same way as the V-dub arms do then you can't really put things back to stock or as you put it "Normal.".

If you take a look at what the Landy bods do when raising their rides for more ground clearance you'll see that switching the trackrod end from bottom to top is a common fix but there's more than one way to skin a cat. I'd still be interested to see what other rides look like....anybody?

[biggles1]

Jun 25, 2014 11:27:31 GMT scooby said:

. . .Anyways, who modified your rear arches? Is that the same as the expensive 4x4 Eagle version on the Landrover website?

The arches are TJ wrangler ones. I have a set of 4. The rears are simple to fit but the fronts are a little more of a challenge. I've always disliked the big, round, "Typical Kit Car" look of the RV arches.
The wheels are 1987 Ford Mustang (15" x 7")

John

[scooby]

Nice.

Yep, our cars do need that extra bit of work to stop them looking so kit-carish!

My thoughts are, once I've resprayed the body (whenever that happens - and current fav colour is a mid-grey metallic), to matt-black texture-stipple the wheel arches, perhaps fit a thin beading along where the arches join the body, and then add a heavier edge-moulding strip along the outside edges of the arches to finish them of. I'm hoping that'll take away the existing all-one-single-fibreglass-moulding look...

The Mustang wheels were 108 pcd? Wow. Spacers used? They're nice - and nicely different.

[biggles1]

Jun 26, 2014 8:58:20 GMT scooby said:

The Mustang wheels were 108 pcd? Wow. Spacers used? They're nice - and nicely different.

The "Fox" Mustangs (1979 to 1993) all had 4 x 108 pcd wheels except the 1993 Cobra "R" and the SVO turbo models which had 5 stud wheels.
They fit without spacers but are a little close on the inside edge on the fronts so I'm going to fit some very thin, hubcentric spacers. The centre bore on the mustang wheels is fraction tight to fit on the Cortina front hubs (the rears are perfect), but with the hubcentric spacers they fit ok on the front.

I'm currently running 1987 wheels on my 1993 Mustang too. Simply because the 15" tyres are so much cheaper than the 16" ones that my 93 had as standard.



My biggest problem at the moment with the RV, is the condition of the windscreen frame. It's been butchered and bodged and I could really do with a replacement.

John

[scooby]

There's an RV on 'Bay at the moment which looks as tho' its never been registered, so considered how little even 'road-worthy' RVs go for, there's every chance that it'll go unsold at the starting £250. If that's the case, perhaps he'll be willing to break for parts (which is what he's suggesting he'll do if it doesn't sell)?

[biggles1]

I did see that one Scooby and if it doesn't sell, I'll be asking him about the windscreen frame for sure.
I guess it depends on if he'll send it or not. It's too far away for me to collect.

John